If you somehow reached this page, you may be confused. This page was temporarily created to respond to a post in the religion thread on You are welcome to read it, but it may not make much sense without knowing the previous posts.

Page One

I've stated my beliefs in several posts previously, but some of the newer posters may not understand my personal beliefs, so I will re-state them here along with some new ones.

One of those beliefs is that I personally feel that there are inevitable errors in the Bible. It is a compilation of many manuscripts, by many authors. As such, it will contain some inconsistencies and conflicting points of view. Some Christians believe that every word in the Bible is the absolute undeniable Word of God. I am not one of those. Since it was written by men, I can easily see that it can contain human influences. I have been told several times on the thread that either I must accept the Bible as 100% accurate, or I must reject it completely. If you feel that way, you can feel that way, but you cannot force your opinions on me. I believe the way I believe, and that is that - my right. Period. If you cannot accept that that is my right, you may as well exit this page, as the whole page is based on those beliefs of mine.

Another point. The thread was originally started as a debate on religion. It has become the following at various times:
1. A discussion debating several different religions (the original topic).
2. A discussion on whether God exists or not.
3. A discussion comparing creationism to evolution (compares apples to apples).
4. A discussion comparing the origin of the universe to evolution (compares apples to oranges).
5. A discussion of Christianity.
6. A discussion on the historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible.

In the following, I will discuss each separately.

1. Different religions
There have been (and are still), thousands of "religions". Some believe in a "God" of some sort - others do not. This discussion is beyond the scope of this document, and will be left to wiser fools than I. Religion (or the lack thereof) is a 100% personal experience, and will be debated for time eternal.

2. Does God exist?
This has been debated since Man lived in caves, and the debate will continue forever. The existence of God cannot be proved through any scientific process. Neither can the non-existence of God. Belief in God is exactly that. Belief - faith. No more and no less. Many believers find their own personal "proof" in many ways. From the beauty of a flower to the laughter of a baby. From a miraculous cure to an answered prayer. All are anecdotal and very subjective. None would be accepted as "proof" by a non-believer. Blind luck, natural events explainable through physics, coincidence, etc. will always be the non-believers explanation. And rightfully so. Otherwise, there would be no need for faith. Faith is belief with no absolute proof. Virtually all religions require faith alone as a prerequisite. As such, debate on the existence of God can be interesting at times, but it is seldom productive for either side of the debate.

3. Creationism or evolution?
As long as the debate is comparing the following stances: a. the God-influenced creation and development of life to b. the spontaneous/instant creation of life and subsequent evolution/natural selection This is a valid apple-to-apple debate.

Hard core creationists believe that God created all animals and Man and Woman as whole, current-entity beings. All species were created as their individual species with no evolution occurring at all. For the record, I am not one of those subscribing to this belief.
Hard core spontaneous life and evolution believers hold to the stance that life sprang from some kind of primordial goo through the happenstance of the correct mixture of chemicals and environmental conditions. That original life form is some (currently unknown) precursor of viruses, bacteria, single-celled amoeba, or similar form of life. That original life form evolved over millions/billions of years into every form of life currently (or previously) on Earth. Through natural selection, the most adaptable of them have survived, while the least adaptable of them died off. For the record, I adhere to a modified version of this camp. My thoughts will be explained later in this document.

With the science that we currently have acquired so far, the evolution side of the argument holds the most water. But, when God is placed into the equation, there are other explanations that can hold up too. This too will be discussed later in this document.

4. Comparing the origin of the universe to evolution
This debate should not even be taking place. They are two completely different trains of thought. The origin of the Universe has no place in the discussion of evolution. See part 3 for the proper debate. It is only mentioned here because this "debate" has been discussed several times in the thread. Creation begins at the origin of the Universe. Evolution begins at the origin of life. To compare the two would be comparing apples to oranges.

5. A discussion of Christianity
Although any discussion of religion should include Christianity, it seems that Christianity has become the major topic. Although the Old Testament is included in Christian teachings, the primary aspect of Christianity is the New Testament. It is the basis for Christ's teachings. Again, it has been compiled and translated by men, and is just as susceptible to errors and mis-translation as the Old Testament. But, the teachings of Christ are clear to anyone who is truly seeking those teachings. Any text can be picked apart by looking for inconsistencies, and my thoughts concern reading the whole rather than small pieces. Keep in mind the fallacies and agendas of the compilers and translators. But (again) stating that I have to accept it "all or nothing" is simply your opinion - not mine.

6. The historical and scientific accuracy of the Bible
This is the meat of this post - and will include several of the other 5 items. In my opinion, it is not the inaccuracies that stand out so much as the accuracies. The Bible was written thousands of years ago from verbal teachings that were handed down from generation to generation for thousands more years. The people involved were experts at survival skills because without them, they would not have survived. But, they were not scientists by any stretch of the imagination, of course. That their teachings could contain even a grain of accuracy when it comes to genetics, particle physics or any other scientific endeavor is truly amazing.

I know, the Bible is supposed to be the Word of God, written by God-inspired men. I am not saying that that is not true. But, if you were to try and explain the Singularity and the Big Bang to a 4-year old child, how would you do it? I doubt that you would hand them a textbook from a college particle physics book. It is more likely that you would talk to them in terms they would understand. Early Man would need the same consideration.

Keep in mind, that the best science known only 150 years ago concluded that our Sun was a huge lump of coal! The only problem with that was that their calculations indicated that the Sun was younger than the Earth. Puzzling to the scientists of the time, but it was thought that there was just some error in their calculations. It was not until the 1920's that the true nature of the sun was discovered. Less than 100 years ago! Also, until the 1920's, the Milky Way was thought to be the entire Universe. The (very faint) other galaxies were thought to be nebulae that were located within the Milky Way. So, it is no surprise that any knowledge of the actual makeup of the Earth, Solar System, Milky Way and the Universe would have been explained in extremely simple terms to early Man - tens of thousands of years ago. We simply cannot fault early Man for not having the abilities to understand the true creation of the Universe.

So, with these limitations in mind, how well did early Man fare with the creation stories? Pretty good, in my opinion. Especially when you consider the verbal aspects of the early versions, coupled with the crude writing abilities in the later years. The following is my interpretation of the Biblical creation. I took the first chapter of Genesis, reordered some of it - modernized the language somewhat - and put it in my words - day by day. It fits very well with what science has come up with in the last 40 or 50 years.

God created the material and the ethereal.

Time Period One
God moved about all that there was, separated the ethereal and the material and brought the material together in one place - the Singularity. He said "Let there be light!" and wow! Was there light! The Big Bang. The Universe was born, and filled with light. Where the light was became Day. Where the light had not yet reached was night.
End of Time Period One

Time Period Two
God created gravity so that the resultant matter could gather together in patches and form combinations of matter in many separate areas. The result was areas of solid matter, areas of gaseous matter and empty regions. This was the beginning of stars and galaxies.
End of Time Period Two

Time Period Three
As the matter around the stars began to cool, the gravity that God created began to gather the matter into planets, moons, asteroids, etc. As the Earth developed, a gaseous atmosphere formed. As the Earth cooled, some of the atmosphere condensed into rain, and the oceans were formed and the continents were defined.
End of Time Period Three

Time Period Four
In some areas of the Earth, God influenced the conditions to be amiable to Life, and the first simple forms of life were created. From these beginnings, life evolved into primitive plants. From those plants, complex plants evolved and covered the Earth. The oceans developed into habitable waters and the plants thrived there also. Because of the richness of the seas, the plantlife there thrived and evolved into even more complex organisms and became the fish and the whales of the seas. Sea life was abundant.
End of Day Four

Time Period Five
Some of the sea inhabitants began to emerge onto the land and into the air. The amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals developed and began to inhabit all of the lands. Life was abundant on the land.
End of Time Period Five

Time Period Six
God wanted a higher form of life, so he created Man and Woman, and placed them in charge of the Earth and all of its inhabitants. He instilled them with free will so they would have the ability to make choices.
End of Time Period Six

Time Period Seven
God figured that He had done enough, so He took a break.
End of Time Period Seven

Click here for KJV text (in the order above)

OK - That's the argument I use to parallel biblical creation with scientific theory. As I said earlier, I am amazed how close the two are when you consider that the biblical version was told/written thousands of years ago by humans who had no concept of the Universe. Sounds like they may have had some help there.

On to other debate topics concerning the accuracy of the Bible. Many non-believers use the "murders" by God or under the instruction of God as a reason to disavow any belief in God, and to call out believers for following such a God. Here's my take on that argument. As I have said before, the Bible was written/translated my men. In some cases, men with selfish agendas. Anyone that reads the entire Bible should see that the bulk of it deals with common sense instructions and the existence of God as a parent who teaches His children. Any parent knows that in some specific situations, even seemingly harsh treatment is warranted. By the way, I will discuss Hell later, so I am not referencing Hell at this time.

Man is (in the most basic sense) an animal - with animal instincts. Part of being human (supposedly at least) is in our ability to control those instincts. We fail miserably quite often. Just look at our history. When we fail, what do we usually do? We either blame someone else, or we seek some kind of justification for our actions. It has been rumored for years that President George W. Bush claimed that God told him to attack Iraq. That held more water with a lot more people than the WMD argument or the (more likely) War for Oil argument. So, even modern leaders misuse God to justify their actions. Should we not believe that ancient Man had the same flaw? What better excuse for obliterating a city or another race of people than the excuse that "God told me to"? But blaming God for Mans' inhumanity to Man is ridiculous. But, there are multiple instances of this behavior in the (Christian) Old Testament. But blaming God for that behavior is inconsistent with the majority of the teachings in the Bible. As such, I write those instances off to Man's influence in the teachings to cover his own tracks.

But, did those slaughters (of other races, etc.) actually take place anyway? Or, are they just stories made up to create heroes? In my opinion, they are probably based on actual events that took place before recorded time. I will address scientific views of anthropology and fossil records and such later. Suffice it to say that (for the most part) I agree with the accepted theories of evolution. So my theories here will parallel anthropological evidence for the most part - but from a purely layman's perspective.

(continued here)

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